Interview with Anthony Ragler of Black and White Coffee
/BY HYLAN JOSEPH
I initially approached Anthony Ragler for an interview after he had interviewed for a Board position for the Coffee Technicians Guild. He made some compelling points during his board interview about current barista culture, gentrification, and inclusivity in our industry. I wanted to know more so I reached out to him for an interview. In a break for our normal interview, due the length and value of value of the comments, this interview will be two parts.
My key takeaway: Anthony gives me a lot of hope that our industry is going to change for the better. I see him being one of the people to lead that change.
This interview has been edited from the original for brevity and content.
Hylan - What made you decide to go with Black and White roasters?
Anthony - I wanted to work with Black and White as a roaster. I had a lot of interactions with them that felt very individualized in a way that happens with businesses that are smaller than the roasting icons of the game. It was clear that they valued the people they worked with. They were some of the most gracious and genuine people that I had ever come across. It was the first time that I got to see what a working relationship could be with a group of people that are invested in seeing you succeed in and outside of their wheelhouse. Since I’ve begun working with them, I've only increased in my belief in that. This is one of the few places I have this strong of an endorsement for.
Hylan - Speaking to what you are calling icons versus small roasters. I am a big fan of a local company called Red Bay that did a lot for the local community.
Anthony - Red Bay is fantastic, I love them.
Hylan - As our industry moves forward, looking at roasters, do you think that the Black and White model and the Red Bay model of the smaller batch roasters, is going to trump the icon roasters?
Anthony - I think the bottleneck for larger companies is when you must start expanding, you have less of a pulse of everyone that you impact. There needs to be a lot more careful vetting and sorting of the people that are responsible for carrying along the vision. There can be great people at the top and then they fall off because communicating a vision does not always communicate to the same exact language. If you ever played the game telephone as a six-year-old kid at summer camp; you start a message on one side and it is something completely different by the time you get to the end. Because things get lost in translation. It is possible for that same feel, impact, and interaction to happen when you grow as long as who you are growing with also are just as invested into that message. I think that that is a two-way street. I think it is definitely bringing in and vetting the right people, but it's also once you get the right people, taking care of them accordingly so that they are just as enthusiastic about what you are trying to do as you, the business owner, are.
Hylan - I want to speak to your career trajectory, then I want to talk about the comment you made during the board interview about gentrification. You started off as a barista and moved yourself into a service position. What made you decide to do that? What was your trajectory for that?
Anthony - The trajectory was I got in as a barista and had no intention of working in coffee as my career.
Hylan - No one does. I have never met one person; we make this joke. If you meet somebody who said they decided to work in coffee as a career, find them and send their picture to everyone because they are a rare as a pink unicorn.
Anthony - Or just charge them with perjury because they are lying. I promise you they are lying.
Hylan - You're probably right.
Anthony - I did not plan on it. To be honest with you, growing up in Brooklyn, cafés are not the sign of community that everyone thinks that it is. Everyone that believes in Brooklyn, new cafés are a sign of community. When a café shows up in Brooklyn, or anywhere that's not downtown Manhattan or some extremely rich neighborhood, it is a sign that the neighborhood is being gentrified and the people that are native to that place are being priced out.
When I was going to school there were the four years that the Barclays Center was being built. The year after I graduated was the first year that the graduating class did their graduation in the Barclays because it was open. In that four-year time span of passing that construction site every day; I watched all of the neighborhood shops, homes, apartment buildings and all those things get completely wiped out for larger chains, for cafés, for stadiums for shopping centers, things of that nature.
I've never really looked at cafés as anything other than the signal that, okay, you are being priced out. During the time in which I started working in this, I wasn't invested emotionally thinking that this is going to be somewhere that I'd stay. But as I became more visible there, I watched the clientele change. More people of color from the neighborhood started coming in. More people felt comfortable that usually would just see the shop and just walk past it. When they had come in, conversations would start about, oh, I didn't know this was here. Or I knew this was here, but I didn't feel like I was welcomed. That made me feel a bit more of, not necessarily a responsibility, but I felt like I could find some way to fulfill what I consider my purpose to be while still working in coffee. And that made me go, okay, I can work on building community and creating spaces for people to feel comfortable and be themselves while still doing that in coffee, because it already has a set template of the idea that this is a place you come for fellowship, this is a place you come to unwind, enjoy coffee and talk to people, things of that nature.
So that made me decide that I'd stay if I could figure out the right route. And in that time span I started noticing how hard it is to get past the entry-level idea of you go from one shop where you are a barista and maybe a manager, to another shop and be a barista etc, etc. And that role just continues of, you are only allowed to be a barista and they are not going to let you get into roasting or tech or green buying or sales or any of that stuff. So when I finally was offered the opportunity to move into managing a production department and managing the wholesale side of a company, I not only looked at that and said, okay, this is my chance for me to accelerate, but this is also my chance to learn the knowledge that will allow other people that look like me and come from the places I come from to have that opportunity. Because I can pass on that knowledge. As it is currently set, every bit of progression in this industry is apprentice or hand chosen. Someone must pick you to move you up as opposed to you just getting the job. There is no tenure, okay cool, you've been here this long, now you get to learn these things. Someone has like you enough to decide they want to see you elevate. I would like to change that and make it so that it's more of a meritocracy or there's more opportunities for people can get the information that's being withheld from them so that they can make the decisions on where they want to go. But that is ultimately the passion that I found for the industry itself. Being able to keep widening the horizons and opening possibilities for people in general based on what they are capable of and not who they know or who decided they like them already.
Hylan - Right. What's funny about coffee is, it's such a massive industry and it's worldwide yet it still feels like a small-town community because you know everybody. It's funny how you still see a lot of the negative aspects that you also see in a lot of small-town communities. The favoritism, the gatekeeping. This industry can be so progressive, but at the same time, it still hasn't moved along in certain areas.
Anthony - I think that that has a part to do with the fact that this is the only industry that tries to be luxury for the everyday person at the same exact time. We want to talk about the product and the industry and the things that we do in a way that gives us the respect like wine sommeliers get, or the respect that craft beer gets. But also try to present it in a way where it's like, hey, it's for everybody. How do you make it both without alienating people is the first thing? Because we do that, we kind of keep putting the same style of people in place because people want the image of this industry to look a certain way and be able to promote it to specific places and that just further alienates anyone that doesn't look like them. Or anyone that doesn't have the same frame of reference. And that's why you say this industry seem so massive but it's so small. The reason you see the same people at the industry events is because they are the only ones allowed to go. You're not sending those tenured baristas who've been behind the counter and want some career advancement to these. They have to find a way to fund themselves and pay for themselves to go because their companies won't send them. There are so many people that have the talent and the ability and the desire and don't even really get to see that all of these other possibilities can exist. And that is kind of the problem.
Hylan - I agree with you. It's interesting you bring about the luxury item and the basic item. When third wave first came out in 2005, 2006, it was considered a little controversial. It was taking coffee to a level that no one had ever seen before. At the time you could serve it at Dunkin' Donuts or you can serve it at mom-and-pops or you can do Starbucks. The forerunners came around and said, let's turn this into flavor, let's turn this into… This is not a cup of black coffee that you get first thing in the morning, this is a cup of black coffee that you drink with fish. This is a cup of black coffee that you drink with a dessert. I was one of these people that was detracting it. I thought it was really stupid because I thought there was too much fluff to it. It's like we are all buying the same coffee, we're just selling a better brand. So it was interesting how many people like me, older people, turn over to support it because they really did take the experience of coffee and create something with it. But at the same time, they'd carry everybody with them. I completely regret detracting on the initial third wave movement.
Anthony - Right.
Hylan - They created a more insular experience. It's like even now I go into coffee shops in California and it's like, I honestly think I am not cool enough to be in here. I have an issue with that because part of what our community is being inclusive to the community.
Anthony - Right. Now here's the thing with that. And it's interesting that you bring it up in that nature because I would say there is a guard of people, I think you are putting timestamps to it. I'm not necessarily sure if I have enough knowledge of the industry to speak on it in timestamps, but I can say there is a sector of the industry that, to the outside world, is presenting as coffee is Folgers, Dunkin' Donuts etc. etc. and it's for everyone. But that's why it's not valuable. And then there is a sector of the community that coffee is only specialty and geisha etc, etc, and that's why it's not approachable. There is a middle ground in which these two worlds can exist where the product is given the respect and the acclaim that it deserves because of all the hard work and the hands that are required to get it to the point that it is. But not so much so in a way that it alienates people from feeling like they are cool enough or smart enough or sophisticated enough to embrace it. And that's just what's happening to the consumers. Inside the industry, like for example, you just brought up the whole “I had someone that was a complete asshole to me until I knew how to make a perfect shot of espresso”. And I'm speaking from the place of knowing people that have been making these fantastic shots of espresso for 7+ years that can't get a job anywhere other than being a barista because no one will give them that opportunity. Like I can point to people who are like, I came to this place to be a roaster, not even the head roaster, but I just want to roast for this place. And they passed me up for somebody that was out on the street because they were more cool with them. And that's the experience that I've watched happen as a black person, that I've watched happen to other black people and people of color and other people who just don't fit under the same guise of whoever is picking who gets to move on forward. So ultimately, outside the industry there's already enough alienation or devaluing, and then inside the industry whether you are liked or not is determined on whether you have value or whether you are approachable because when you make the perfect shot of espresso and you look like the person that they want to see represent coffee, it's, hey, as a matter fact, you should be our director of education, you should be our salesperson, you should be our roaster etc, etc. And when you're not that person, it's like, hey, you make great cup of coffee, continue doing what you are doing. And that's the change that needs to happen because that's the part that is making it so difficult to be able to branch out and have more people actually affect this industry.
Hylan - I think it's changing. Let me try this again, I hope it's changing. I see inroads to it but it's not changing fast enough. And I don't know how to make it change fast enough.
Let's move on to the coffee tech aspect of what we do. As you bring up the tech aspect of what we do is, you really have to hire somebody who's got some experience to do it, but it's like, but first, the person has got to walk through the door. My difficulty is getting people to walk through the door and say, “I want to do this.” I had a very good friend of mine who wanted to be a tech. And for years she wouldn't do it because she was afraid… And I don't know if the term is gatekeeping, but she was afraid they would tell her no. I have a daughter and my comment to my daughter would have been, “Why didn't you just ask? Why didn't you just say, hey, I want to do this?” And she says, “Finally, I did, I just asked and they were like, come on in.” But what we need to do on our end is create an environment where you are not afraid to ask. And I think to some point, particularly in the tech industry, we've created this environment… And I don't know if it's on purpose, but we don't create an environment where it's inclusive. And if you show up at the door we are just going to help you.
Anthony - Techs are very insulated when you think about it. When you aren't a company that has your own tech program in-house, techs to you are the person you call when something is breaking, they need to come fix a thing. There's not much conversation there. They kind of just come in, do their thing, it disrupts your day, and then they go when you are fixed and then they are expensive to pay for. Like there is no real connection for a barista at a café, like a small café, to interact with a technician. That doesn't really correlate.
Hylan - Don't you think there should be?
Anthony - No, I absolutely think there should be. But I also think that when you're talking about something like these cafés where there are a lot of people that have an experience very similar to you where I was treated like trash until I learned how to make the perfect shot of espresso. That is now their template of what they expect elevating in the industry to look like. I don't think these people are even going to be nice to me until I show that I have some type of worth. So what we need to do, not only in creating a space within our own realms to make it more welcoming for people to come in and ask just off of faith, or off of having a desire, but also, kind of changing the guard in these other spaces where the status quo for people isn't, hey, I had terrible leadership and ownership up until I got to this one specific place that treated me right. I think people have this idea that you have to pay your dues to earn your spot. And it's almost like pledging a fraternity or a sorority where it's like, I got hit and I got hazed so therefore you should get hit and you should get hazed. It's passing on a cycle of something that's ultimately unnecessary.
Hylan - It is a cycle. You see it a lot. It's the, “I had to earn my dues, so because I had to earn my dues you have to earn your dues.” And the problem is, it's a perpetuated cycle and it's a very male cycle. At some point in time, men have to go, “That's not how it's going to work.” It's like: you want to be welcome, you want to learn this, I'm going to show you. And when we first started the guild, we had a lot of people tell us, no, they weren't interested. Some of the arguments were that we were going to take their business away. Some of the arguments were that it's dangerous training techs. It's like, listen you guys, give it a shot. Sit down and see what we're doing and then move forward. And a lot of the initial detractors are actually supporters now and back us up. We're not trying to take your business away from you, we're trying to actually make it so you have a pool of trained techs that are out there. I still run into people fighting it. And it's interesting.
To be continued.